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 Post subject: Re: Ute Prophecy Tree at Meyer Ranch OSP+Other Ute CMTs
Post Posted: Apr 4, 2017 9:27 am 
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How about this one?
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 Post subject: Re: Ute Prophecy Tree at Meyer Ranch OSP+Other Ute CMTs
Post Posted: Apr 4, 2017 10:32 am 
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:coffee screen: Love it!!

Obviously not all twisted and bent trees are culturally modified. :doh:
I don't think anyone has tried to imply such a ridiculous notion. :silly:

But there are a fair number of suspicious trees for an expert to investigate along the 285 corridor.

Fascinating topic. :applause: :applause:


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 Post subject: Re: Ute Prophecy Tree at Meyer Ranch OSP+Other Ute CMTs
Post Posted: Apr 10, 2017 3:38 pm 
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Odysseus wrote:
How about this one?
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But of COURSE that one is culturaly modified!

By an unidentified culture with a great sense of humor!
:rof laughing:


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 Post subject: Re: Ute Prophecy Tree at Meyer Ranch OSP+Other Ute CMTs
Post Posted: Apr 10, 2017 4:38 pm 
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Considering the fact many of the trees in the area may not be much more than 100 years old, I doubt most of the so called Ute trees are Ute modified. For the most part, the Utes were driven from eastern parts of the Colorado front range over 150 years ago. This fact makes it even more likely the trees are not Ute modified. Human modified? Perhaps. But, Mother Nature has a funny way of affecting the shape of trees, too. All it takes is one fallen tree or branch to hold down a young sapling until it decays many years later...leaving in place a strangely twisted tree. Lose an apex of a tree early on and it grows a U joint. Go figure. I'm not buying into the hype. To each his/her own.


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 Post subject: Re: Ute Prophecy Tree at Meyer Ranch OSP+Other Ute CMTs
Post Posted: Apr 12, 2017 7:30 am 
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I was hoping someone was going to give a brief summary here of the presentation in Shawnee last weekend.

I wanted to go but was unable to make it. I'd love to hear what the experts have been finding in our area.

A few people on this thread talk about pines trees being less than 100 years old.
But the average lifespan of lodgepole pines is 200-400 years, a typical ponderosa pine lives 500-600 years and bristlecone pines can live thousands of years.

Our area has some profoundly "modified" trees. Whether they were modified by nature, Utes or others is an interesting subject. Inquiring minds...


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 Post subject: Re: Ute Prophecy Tree at Meyer Ranch OSP+Other Ute CMTs
Post Posted: Apr 12, 2017 1:11 pm 
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Not to mention, most of the 285 corridor was clear cut by the late 1800's, read The upper side of the pie crust: An early history of southwestern Jefferson County, Conifer, Pine, Buffalo Creek, Colorado

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 Post subject: Re: Ute Prophecy Tree at Meyer Ranch OSP+Other Ute CMTs
Post Posted: Apr 12, 2017 4:41 pm 
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Scout wrote:
Not to mention, most of the 285 corridor was clear cut by the late 1800's, read The upper side of the pie crust: An early history of southwestern Jefferson County, Conifer, Pine, Buffalo Creek, Colorado


My point exactly. Most trees not much older than 100 years. At least in the well traveled and populated areas of the foothills. I'm thinking a lot of these Ute trees are wishful thinking. Someone's making $$$ off this idea. Have there been any publications from the Ute nation regarding these trees? I look at all the references and see nothing.

Sounds like more crop circles to me. Next thing you know, someone will proclaim certain rock formations were created by hobbits left behind thousands of years ago to warn of dragons and trolls. Rocks were sacred to hobbits.


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 Post subject: Re: Ute Prophecy Tree at Meyer Ranch OSP+Other Ute CMTs
Post Posted: Apr 12, 2017 5:12 pm 
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Sorry mtree but you are wrong about very old trees in this area. Our property has trees 30" and more in diameter. Both Meyers Ranch OSP and Reynolds OSP have some very, very large trees as do other properties that I have been on.

Actually, I hike Reynolds OSP a lot and have not seen one tree that looked remotely like a CMT. So the explanation that all the bent trees are just nature's shaping doesn't seem probable to me as it didn't happen at Reynolds.

I realize that not all the trees that I or others may think are CMTs but I do believe some are. You can believe or not. I do. It's interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Ute Prophecy Tree at Meyer Ranch OSP+Other Ute CMTs
Post Posted: Apr 13, 2017 11:01 am 
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TillerBee wrote:
Sorry mtree but you are wrong about very old trees in this area. Our property has trees 30" and more in diameter. Both Meyers Ranch OSP and Reynolds OSP have some very, very large trees as do other properties that I have been on.


As I stated, MOST trees in the well-traveled and populated areas are not much older than 100 years, but not all. I too, have lived on property with 30+ inch diameter ponderosa pines. None of which were human modified. There are plenty all over the Staunton Park area as well and a good stand in Myer Ranch Park. Heck, my neighbors have quite a few.

But...just as animal paths become foot paths which become cart paths and cart paths become roads and roads become highways, the well traveled areas in the foothills were likely well traveled areas by the various Native Americans for hundreds of years. And those areas have mostly trees under 150 years old. More like 100 or less. From the photos of "Ute" trees I've seen, I find its a stretch of the imagination and a bunch of made up revisionist history. Not to say there aren't ANY human modified trees in the area, just saying they're probably not these so-called Ute Prophecy trees. The Utes were pretty much gone from this area 150 years ago. The Utes were a nomadic people and very loosely banded until fairly recently. Why would they bother to bend a tree that won't mature for generations, not even knowing if it would become the desired shape? When did they take up topiary? To top it all off, the foothills just wasn't an area they traditionally inhabited in the past 200 years. The Arapaho and Apache tribes were the more likely inhabitants. Eventually the Cheyenne, and Kiowa were also pushed this way.

As far as the Utes modifying trees for whatever reason...who came up with that? In all the historical and cultural data I've seen, there isn't any mention of this practice. That's why I think its a fabrication that's taken on a life of its own. Folks make stuff up to explain the unexplained. Just look up ghost hunters. "Scholars" are no different. Publish or perish.

I wouldn't be surprised if trees were modified by settlers to mark their property lines! Or maybe it was kids goofing around! I had a twisted Aspen tree in my yard, but I'm sure it wasn't caused by some migrating tribe of Utes. It's gone now. An elk beat the snot out of it one autumn morning! But, to each his/her own. Believe what you will. No harm, no foul. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


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 Post subject: Re: Ute Prophecy Tree at Meyer Ranch OSP+Other Ute CMTs
Post Posted: Apr 13, 2017 11:24 am 
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Ute Culturally Scarred Trees By Celinda Reynolds Kaelin, Copyright 2003

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In 1996, while working on a history of the Pikes Peak area, the Ute Cultural Affairs office assigned Consultant A as my cultural liaison. We corresponded for several years, and then in 1998, finally met. I learned that this person was a Spiritual Liaison (Medicine Man) during the course of our interviews, and later I became his assistant as we worked with the World Council of Elders.


In search of sacred trees the Utes left behind

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There is growing awareness of the Ute trees, and historian Celinda Kaelin has identified more than 500 in the region.

“For me, these trees are really imbued with a special spiritual power and when people do a ceremony at these trees, it’s very powerful,” said Kaelin, who works with the Pikes Peak Historical Society Museum in Florissant. “Each of these trees is like a cathedral to the people. They are living artifacts and they’re fascinating from that regard.”

Kaelin has worked with the Northern Ute Indian tribe for more than 15 years to document the trees and teach others about their significance.


Great Lakes Trail Marker Tree Society - images of CMTs from across the US

Maybe a bit of research would help understand CMT's. There are many, many other references both to the Utes and other tribes.


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 Post subject: Re: Ute Prophecy Tree at Meyer Ranch OSP+Other Ute CMTs
Post Posted: Apr 13, 2017 11:27 am 
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Not buying it.


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 Post subject: Re: Ute Prophecy Tree at Meyer Ranch OSP+Other Ute CMTs
Post Posted: Apr 13, 2017 12:29 pm 
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You don't have to "buy it" mtree.
Many of the CMT's are being cut or culled from the forest as deformed trees along with other trees deformed by earth movement or disease.
A problem inviting skepticism about CMT identification is that many people attempting to ID those trees have not been trained or educated by Ute elders who carried on the information. Sometimes they are eager to ID any deformed tree as a CMT tree, that is not the case. The tradition of making the CMT's died out over a hundred years ago and Kaelin received her information almost 20 years ago from an elderly Ute familiar with the old ways that he learned from his father and grandfather. Many of the younger Utes are unfamiliar with CMT's and many other ancient Ute traditions just as many third or fourth generation descendants of European immigrants are not very familiar with their heritage details.


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