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 Post subject: Re: Ute Prophecy Tree at Meyer Ranch OSP+Other Ute CMTs
Post Posted: Apr 13, 2017 11:58 am 
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Still not buying it.
I think its fiction becoming reality. As an example: The Stanley Hotel. Prior to the film, The Shining, the Stanley was never listed as a "haunted" hotel. Only after the movie gained fame and ghost hunting became popular did it "suddenly" become haunted. On the opposite side of things, The Grand Central Hotel in Glasgow. Since the renovation, they've buried the haunted past. Folks have a way of morphing things to their benefit.

Again, not saying there are no Ute modified trees. Just saying I don't believe it was a common practice or as prevalent as some say.


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 Post subject: Re: Ute Prophecy Tree at Meyer Ranch OSP+Other Ute CMTs
Post Posted: Apr 13, 2017 2:48 pm 
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Yes, Rak I agree.

And it would be a darn shame to lose even more of the ancient Ute knowledge and CMTs. I hope the experts get a chance to explore our area and find, catalog and preserve them.


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 Post subject: Re: Ute Prophecy Tree at Meyer Ranch OSP+Other Ute CMTs
Post Posted: Apr 13, 2017 4:00 pm 
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I did go to the presentation given by John Anderson at the Shawnee community center/VFW. It was a very interesting presentation. After the presentation, I walked my property and looked at each of the trees. There are many very old trees as they have completely turned orange - one way of identifying older trees.

The links TB provided at the beginning of this topic covers pretty much everything at the presentation. The Ute Indian tribe must have heard about the presentation and the host of the presentation made a statement at the beginning and again at the end of the presentation that the Ute Indian made it very clear that this information is not validated by the Ute Indians and they do not condone anything that was stated. The host/Shawnee History society said that they are talking with the Ute Indian to see if they will give a presentation regarding the CMTs. I really hope they get them to come to give a presentation, that would be quite interesting.

I would like to believe that these trees contain a history and the touch of the Ute Indian from long ago as a sign language to all. So I will ensure none of them are cut where I can prevent it.

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 Post subject: Re: Ute Prophecy Tree at Meyer Ranch OSP+Other Ute CMTs
Post Posted: Apr 13, 2017 4:11 pm 
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I sent a message to a distant friend requesting his input. He's a Native American historian. He's traveled through Indian reservations throughout Colorado, New Mexico, Utah, and wherever else and is regarded as a preeminent expert on the culture of various tribes throughout the southwest. He knows more about the various cultures and history than even those indigenous to the tribes know. He is regarded as an elder to many of these communities and is a knowledge source to the Smithsonian. Even his extensive collection has been turned into a museum and large portions appropriated to the Smithsonian. I had the great fortune years ago to walk across 200 year old Navajo rugs, just to sit in his living room to drink beer while he handed me artifacts and told stories of his travels. Quite a treat! The man is in his 90s now and still sharp as a tack. Once - or if - I hear back from him I'll let you know. If I'm wrong I'll gladly admit it. Until then...


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 Post subject: Re: Ute Prophecy Tree at Meyer Ranch OSP+Other Ute CMTs
Post Posted: Apr 14, 2017 9:19 am 
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gia58 wrote:
... The Ute Indian tribe must have heard about the presentation and the host of the presentation made a statement at the beginning and again at the end of the presentation that the Ute Indian made it very clear that this information is not validated by the Ute Indians and they do not condone anything that was stated. The host/Shawnee History society said that they are talking with the Ute Indian to see if they will give a presentation regarding the CMTs. I really hope they get them to come to give a presentation, that would be quite interesting.


Gia, what was the Ute Tribe's objection? Were they objecting to how that particular speaker portrays the information (not enough reverence to the ancient ways, misinterpretations, other?) as he has been speaking on this topic for quite some time. Or do they object to the fact it was being talked about by and to "white men" or objections to the topic entirely.

Several decades ago I participated in a sweat lodge led by a native American man for a group of men and women (none of which were native American). Afterwards, people from his tribe chastised and punished him for sharing their sacred culture in an objectionable way. I was shocked by this. But over the years have encountered similar attitudes and I can now respect it.


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 Post subject: Re: Ute Prophecy Tree at Meyer Ranch OSP+Other Ute CMTs
Post Posted: Apr 14, 2017 10:18 am 
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It was never explained exactly why, but what I felt it was due to your last paragraph, cooknthyme. Their sacred culture which was invaded by the white man, so I'm sure they carry a grudge.

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 Post subject: Re: Ute Prophecy Tree at Meyer Ranch OSP+Other Ute CMTs
Post Posted: Apr 14, 2017 10:51 am 
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Wanted to post some photos of the trees that I picked out on my property. I am not saying these are CMT, but who knows.

John Anderson was honored by a very ancient Ute Indian who felt John was harmless and so he welcomed John on one of their ceremonies for a CMT tree that had broken. John talked about this in his presentation, but I apologize, because I do not remember the Ute Indian's name, but appears he is well known and quite respected.

John also explained how they created ropes by using plants (I think he said yucca) which they then tied the tree so that they can modify them. He said they would tie them four times, each after a long while as the tree grew. He showed some photos of where you can barely see the rope marks. He said sometimes the marks were hidden beneath the bark.

Another thing to look for is a medicinal tree, where the bark is peeled. They used the most inner bark as medicine. He said what to look for is a cut at the top and then pulled off to the bottom.

The trees I show below are similar to what he was showing. I will probably share these with the historical society, but who knows.

This is the tree that always amazed me and now I look at it in a whole different light. They said a tree does not have to be large to be old, to look at the color.

Image

This is a close up to show color - see the orange, that is a sign of very old

Image

This is another close up which shows another ?tree? coming out of this twisted tree. John had said they would also use methods of planting another tree to modify the other tree.

Image

This is a slightly bent large tree

Image

Closeup of the large bent tree --- could this be tie marks?

Image

Here is a tree with bark removed - the top part of the removal almost appears as done with a tool

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Ute Prophecy Tree at Meyer Ranch OSP+Other Ute CMTs
Post Posted: Apr 14, 2017 9:29 pm 
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Gia58,I would be willing to wager that every picture you presented is just an act of mother nature! the last one looks like a lightning strike.


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 Post subject: Re: Ute Prophecy Tree at Meyer Ranch OSP+Other Ute CMTs
Post Posted: Apr 15, 2017 8:01 am 
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i wouldn't bet, because you are probably right Scalawagy, but it was fun to imagine :)

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 Post subject: Re: Ute Prophecy Tree at Meyer Ranch OSP+Other Ute CMTs
Post Posted: Apr 15, 2017 10:42 am 
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Does this count as a Spirit Tree?

Image

If I remember correctly, I took this photo at the Bristlecone Trees above Alma.

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 Post subject: Re: Ute Prophecy Tree at Meyer Ranch OSP+Other Ute CMTs
Post Posted: Apr 15, 2017 12:12 pm 
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Odysseus wrote:
How about this one?
Image


My grandson always looks for that bow and arrow tree when he comes to my house. He knows exactly where to look for it.

Here's a tree that's only a couple miles from the bow and arrow tree on 68.
I've always thought of it as a Spirit Tree and I love passing it on the way home.
Unfortunately a lot of the trees around it are marked to be cut down. I sure hope they don't do that to this one.
It's bad enough that they cut down the tree we used to decorate at Christmas time on 68 as your entering Pike Ntl. Forest.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Ute Prophecy Tree at Meyer Ranch OSP+Other Ute CMTs
Post Posted: Apr 15, 2017 12:48 pm 
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gia58 wrote:
.... but it was fun to imagine :)

Yes it is!

And some trees modified by mother nature are equally fascinating as CMTs.

It doesn't have to be a CMT to make me ask, " Hey tree, what's up with you? What's your story?"

:love: :pinetree:

Oh if they could only talk. What a tale a tree would tell!


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