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 Post subject: Re: Combat Rules and Traffic Circles
Post Posted: Feb 10, 2019 1:42 pm 
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I actually like traffic circles and would agree with the 73/Kitty Drive intersection. The 73/Pleasant Park intersection could get more complicated due to traffic exiting a highway (thinking of potential backup coming off NB). As several others have said in this thread the challenge to traffic flow is those few who hesitate or stop at the intersection when there is ample time to proceed.


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 Post subject: Re: Combat Rules and Traffic Circles
Post Posted: Feb 10, 2019 4:53 pm 
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I was talking about at the light after the underpass, it certainly wouldn't impact 285, the light doesn't. It would probably require more land to the west of 73, so, that would be an issue, and to put one at Kitty Dr. would probably also require taking more land.


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 Post subject: Re: Combat Rules and Traffic Circles
Post Posted: Feb 10, 2019 5:07 pm 
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It would seem like our tax dollars could be put to better use.


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 Post subject: Re: Combat Rules and Traffic Circles
Post Posted: Feb 10, 2019 5:16 pm 
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Scalawagy wrote:
I was talking about at the light after the underpass, it certainly wouldn't impact 285, the light doesn't. It would probably require more land to the west of 73, so, that would be an issue, and to put one at Kitty Dr. would probably also require taking more land.


I see what you're talking about now. Agreed on the land issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Combat Rules and Traffic Circles
Post Posted: Feb 10, 2019 5:33 pm 
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The one downfall I see with roundabouts is if they are placed in a location where there is very heavy traffic on one particular artery during rush hour and such. As they are designed, a continuous flow of bumper-to-bumper traffic would pass into and out of the roundabout along the busy artery completely blocking any cars entering the roundabout from other side roads. Cars sitting at the other entrances to the roundabout would wait very long periods of time to get through. This was the case at the roundabout I started this thread about. I sat for 10 minutes while traffic to my left continued to flow through the circle, bumper-to-bumper. There was never a safe gap. Finally I had to sort of ease my way in, which only aggravated the individual who I eased in front of. No, without a stop light, you may not get out for an hour. That would stink.

Imagine a roundabout at the intersection of Highway 285 and 43A at the top of Crow Hill (next to Loaf and Jug), or at Pine Junction. You might die of old age before you could get out at those intersections on a Friday night or Sunday afternoon because of a continuous, bumper-to-bumper flow of traffic on 285. It would be great for the folks on 285 with no stop light, but if you were trying to enter that roundabout from the side road, FORGET IT! You would be at the mercy of whoever pulled up to the yield sign and happened to be courteous enough to hesitate just a few seconds to let you out. I think roundabouts are great on little country roads where traffic is low volume and people are courteous. Here in Colorado, well NOPE!

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 Post subject: Re: Combat Rules and Traffic Circles
Post Posted: Feb 10, 2019 5:48 pm 
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Good points Lionshead, agreed.


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 Post subject: Re: Combat Rules and Traffic Circles
Post Posted: Feb 10, 2019 5:55 pm 
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daisypusher wrote:
It would seem like our tax dollars could be put to better use.


I fully agree! But, if at Kitty Dr. one had been originally installed it would have been a major improvement over that light, and probably less expensive in the long run.


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 Post subject: Re: Combat Rules and Traffic Circles
Post Posted: Feb 10, 2019 6:11 pm 
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Lionshead wrote:
The one downfall I see with roundabouts is if they are placed in a location where there is very heavy traffic on one particular artery during rush hour and such. As they are designed, a continuous flow of bumper-to-bumper traffic would pass into and out of the roundabout along the busy artery completely blocking any cars entering the roundabout from other side roads. Cars sitting at the other entrances to the roundabout would wait very long periods of time to get through. This was the case at the roundabout I started this thread about. I sat for 10 minutes while traffic to my left continued to flow through the circle, bumper-to-bumper. There was never a safe gap. Finally I had to sort of ease my way in, which only aggravated the individual who I eased in front of. No, without a stop light, you may not get out for an hour. That would stink.

Imagine a roundabout at the intersection of Highway 285 and 43A at the top of Crow Hill (next to Loaf and Jug), or at Pine Junction. You might die of old age before you could get out at those intersections on a Friday night or Sunday afternoon because of a continuous, bumper-to-bumper flow of traffic on 285. It would be great for the folks on 285 with no stop light, but if you were trying to enter that roundabout from the side road, FORGET IT! You would be at the mercy of whoever pulled up to the yield sign and happened to be courteous enough to hesitate just a few seconds to let you out. I think roundabouts are great on little country roads where traffic is low volume and people are courteous. Here in Colorado, well NOPE!


Would you share with us what intersection this circle is at?

10 min is very long time! How much traffic was stacked up behind you?


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 Post subject: Re: Combat Rules and Traffic Circles
Post Posted: Feb 10, 2019 6:45 pm 
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It depends on traffic patterns. In some places a heavy traffic flow from one direction can completely monopolize a roundabout. It also depends on who you ask as to which is safer. Many argue roundabouts are safer. But some studies show that in high-traffic volume roundabouts cyclists and motorcyclists are in greater danger. They also seem to reduce fatal crashes but often result in a higher rate of non-fatal crashes than a traditional intersection.

Give me a stop-light in an urban setting or stop sigh in a rural setting any day.

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 Post subject: Re: Combat Rules and Traffic Circles
Post Posted: Feb 11, 2019 6:55 am 
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Scalawagy wrote:
Lionshead wrote:
The one downfall I see with roundabouts is if they are placed in a location where there is very heavy traffic on one particular artery during rush hour and such. As they are designed, a continuous flow of bumper-to-bumper traffic would pass into and out of the roundabout along the busy artery completely blocking any cars entering the roundabout from other side roads. Cars sitting at the other entrances to the roundabout would wait very long periods of time to get through. This was the case at the roundabout I started this thread about. I sat for 10 minutes while traffic to my left continued to flow through the circle, bumper-to-bumper. There was never a safe gap. Finally I had to sort of ease my way in, which only aggravated the individual who I eased in front of. No, without a stop light, you may not get out for an hour. That would stink.

Imagine a roundabout at the intersection of Highway 285 and 43A at the top of Crow Hill (next to Loaf and Jug), or at Pine Junction. You might die of old age before you could get out at those intersections on a Friday night or Sunday afternoon because of a continuous, bumper-to-bumper flow of traffic on 285. It would be great for the folks on 285 with no stop light, but if you were trying to enter that roundabout from the side road, FORGET IT! You would be at the mercy of whoever pulled up to the yield sign and happened to be courteous enough to hesitate just a few seconds to let you out. I think roundabouts are great on little country roads where traffic is low volume and people are courteous. Here in Colorado, well NOPE!


Would you share with us what intersection this circle is at?

10 min is very long time! How much traffic was stacked up behind you?


Those are good and fair questions. I had several cars behind me and I don't believe there were any better options. This particular roundabout (which I've since learned is different than a traffic circle) is in Breckenridge at the intersection of Route 9 and Four O'Clock Road. At this roundabout, several times a day, the volume of traffic on Route 9 is extraordinary. There are traffic lights and frequent, busy pedestrian crosswalks on either side of this roundabout which only serve to further impede the progress of impatient drivers passing through on Route 9. My guess is that by the time they get to the roundabout, they are fresh out of courtesy and have no interest in allowing anyone else in front of them at the roundabout as they pour through, car after car.

I appreciate everyone's opinion on this. For a person who has been driving for decades, I've learned a good bit. We may not all agree on some things, but that's okay too. Bottom line, I'm no fan of roundabouts in high volume traffic areas. I think they will work fine in other, more rural areas, but they stink in more urban areas.

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 Post subject: Re: Combat Rules and Traffic Circles
Post Posted: Feb 11, 2019 8:39 am 
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This thread is exhibiting normal internet behavior where the discussion is getting taken to extremes. Nobody is proposing the full-scale replacement of traffic lights and stop signs with roundabouts. There are many, many places where they just do not make sense. However, there are also many, many places where they would make sense, in spite of BG's complete dismissal of them; Scalawagy came up with two good examples in our area. The reason they make a lot of sense in Europe is that people for the most part understand the very simple rules of roundabouts; when they are used in the manner in which they are intended, they are much more efficient than either lights or stop signs. The sad fact is that American drivers, as a whole, are just too stupid to understand them. I think this thread was opened in an attempt to understand why American drivers cannot figure them out; I can only posit that, when most American drivers get behind the wheel, primal instincts take over and completely overwhelm logical thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Combat Rules and Traffic Circles
Post Posted: Feb 11, 2019 9:36 am 
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keg wrote:
This thread is exhibiting normal internet behavior where the discussion is getting taken to extremes. Nobody is proposing the full-scale replacement of traffic lights and stop signs with roundabouts. There are many, many places where they just do not make sense. However, there are also many, many places where they would make sense, in spite of BG's complete dismissal of them; Scalawagy came up with two good examples in our area. The reason they make a lot of sense in Europe is that people for the most part understand the very simple rules of roundabouts; when they are used in the manner in which they are intended, they are much more efficient than either lights or stop signs. The sad fact is that American drivers, as a whole, are just too stupid to understand them. I think this thread was opened in an attempt to understand why American drivers cannot figure them out; I can only posit that, when most American drivers get behind the wheel, primal instincts take over and completely overwhelm logical thought.


Combat rules! Lived them for two one-year tours in Afghanistan. If you want to see an intense traffic jam with ZERO courtesy, just drive through Kabul during the morning or evening rush hour....where there is a really good chance that the driver you just cut off is going to unload a 40 round magazine from an AK 47 into your back window. There, it's not courtesy, it's just survival. :)

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