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 Post subject: Re: ELID - 22% Higher Sales Tax in Evergreen
Post Posted: May 18, 2018 6:12 pm 
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MntMan2014 wrote:
The size of roundabouts that could be installed on 73/74 would never work. The reason the roundabouts work in Europe is because of their shear size, side ramps and multi-lane design.

Here is a perfect solution. Hire a traffic study team to analyze traffic flow along 73/74 and optimize the traffic light patterns.

The old plan and new plan are flawed from the start. All these proposed plans will be funded by local residents for use by visitors.

This country is bankrupt, stop the financial bleed before it is too late!
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Those Roundabouts are STUPID all they are is a man-made obstacle that impedes traffic. Many drivers don't even know how to negotiate them.


That's because, for some inexplicable reason, the simple task of merging has become a lost art. See it every day around here. Kings Valley, Aspen Park, 285 at Richmond Hill, take your pick. Why people struggle with this so much, and sometimes stop where there are acceleration lanes but no stop signs is beyond me. Personally, I don't mind the roundabouts as long as someone isn't in front of me with a dazed, confused look on their face and a death grip on the steering wheel.


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These are some very good points. I've been researching Roundabouts or traffic circles - and they would be a very bad idea for Evergreen for many reasons. One is the "rush in- rush out" nature of our traffic. Thousands of cars rush out in the morning, and then come back in the afternoon. Roundabouts cause a "choke" point while cars que up to enter and the traffic slows to a crawl. If you have several of them between Evergreen and El Rancho- Commute time getting in and out of Evergreen will double or triple. Think about 30+ minutes to go 8 miles.

With a green light- 300+ cars can move through an intersection in way under 1 minute, especially at 50 MPH. You just cant do this with a roundabout. The slower speeds through a circle will que traffic up on one side for blocks. Roundabouts are more efficient when equal (lower) numbers of traffic are moving in several directions.

Many studies claim that roundabouts are efficient- but if you dig into the numbers you will see that accident rates are higher with roundabouts. There are fewer fatal accidents with roundabouts, but this is because the traffic is moving slower. There's actually more accidents, because the simple fact is that people in America don't know how to use them. They are not sure what the rules are, and I don't want Evergreen to be the training course. Fact is many cities are removing them, because the anticipated benefits just never materialized. This was the case on 32nd ave between Kipling and I70. They spent money putting them in, and spent more money removing them.

Then there is the issue of large trucks, school and RTD buses, dump trucks, concrete trucks etc. The circles are too tight and do not offer a proper turning radius. Hwy74 has a large number of trucks that come through, even during rush hour.

There is also the issue of snow plows that can not move through the roundabout fast enough to throw snow, and just make an icy mess trying to navigate the tight circles.

Probably the biggest issue for me is Emergency vehicles- Sheriff, State Patrol, Fire trucks and Ambulances all trying to get through a circle full of traffic in an Emergency. If you are the person having a heart attack, those extra minutes could cost you a life.

Lets not talk about the fact that Jeffco says a roundabout at Bryant Drive could take 3 years to construct. Think construction nightmare.

And Roundabouts are just one reason to say no to higher Sales taxes. Please sign the petition if you agree with me.


Last edited by BearMtnHIB on May 18, 2018 6:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ELID - 22% Higher Sales Tax in Evergreen
Post Posted: May 18, 2018 6:13 pm 
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Yeah, BG, that is just about what I would expect from you. Roundabouts work in Europe and they are, in my opinion, the most efficient means of handling traffic at an intersection. And they are very simple to navigate.


Well, I'm glad I didn't disappoint you. And, to be fair, I also expected you not to get the attempt at humor. And, this time, I wasn't disappointed.

Now a geography lesson. We aren't in Europe.

Like anything, roundabouts have pros and cons. The biggest con being the difficulty of navigating a multi-lane roundabout. They are confusing. They also don't work well when the opposing flows of traffic are heavy from one direction and lighter from another. And as I've posted here before, most people suck at driving. Anything more than a straight line, A to B trip and most people are gonna screw something up because they possess only the most basic of driving skills. Now throw something into the mix that's complicated (like merging ;) ) and stand back and watch the carnage.

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 Post subject: Re: ELID - 22% Higher Sales Tax in Evergreen
Post Posted: May 18, 2018 6:27 pm 
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Bailey Guns wrote:
The biggest con being the difficulty of navigating a multi-lane roundabout. They are confusing. They also don't work well when the opposing flows of traffic are heavy from one direction and lighter from another.


Exactly correct.


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 Post subject: Re: ELID - 22% Higher Sales Tax in Evergreen
Post Posted: May 18, 2018 6:54 pm 
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Bailey Guns wrote:
Well, I'm glad I didn't disappoint you. And, to be fair, I also expected you not to get the attempt at humor. And, this time, I wasn't disappointed.

You're right ... your attempts at humor go right under my head. Humor in a written medium requires a lot of talent to convey ... and you just don't have the chops.
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Now a geography lesson. We aren't in Europe.

Once again, an implication that American drivers are much more stupid than European drivers. Unfortunately, this is quite probably true ... but in this case could be overcome by much more emphasis on learning roundabout rules in Driver Ed.
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Like anything, roundabouts have pros and cons. The biggest con being the difficulty of navigating a multi-lane roundabout. They are confusing.

Not when adequate signage is put up, such as the multi-lane roundabouts on Simms in Lakewood.
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They also don't work well when the opposing flows of traffic are heavy from one direction and lighter from another.

Untrue ... from personal experience driving in Scotland, where some roundabouts were decidedly unbalanced and still functioned perfectly in allowing traffic to flow. And this includes roundabouts on the Scottish equivalent of our interstate highways.
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And as I've posted here before, most people suck at driving. Anything more than a straight line, A to B trip and most people are gonna screw something up because they possess only the most basic of driving skills. Now throw something into the mix that's complicated (like merging ;) ) and stand back and watch the carnage.

And this lack of skills needs to be addressed before our roads get any more choked ... and has nothing at all, really, to do with the feasibility of roundabouts.

I'm not at all sure that there is enough room for a roundabout in downtown Evergreen ... but I'm also not at all sure that there isn't enough room. I would think a one-lane roundabout would be sufficient there, but I'll grant that it might make it impossible for trucks to navigate.

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 Post subject: Re: ELID - 22% Higher Sales Tax in Evergreen
Post Posted: May 18, 2018 7:06 pm 
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In the 19650s TXDOT put a multilane roundabout in South Waco fed by 6 highways and streets. 50 or so years later they proposed to remove it but met objections.

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 Post subject: Re: ELID - 22% Higher Sales Tax in Evergreen
Post Posted: May 18, 2018 8:46 pm 
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fwiw, I'm an old guy born in the USA. The roundabout by the bus barn on 73 works, but has much less traffic than in downtown Evergreen. Roundabouts are a PITA.

So are higher taxes. But I seldom drive to Evergreen, and certainly never to shop. Raise your taxes if you wish.

Enjoy!

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 Post subject: Re: ELID - 22% Higher Sales Tax in Evergreen
Post Posted: May 19, 2018 1:00 am 
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OP, I apologize for highjacking this conversation. You opened this thread for discussion on a tax increase, and I turned it into a referendum on roundabouts (one of my favorite road configurations). You deserve better than that.

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 Post subject: Re: ELID - 22% Higher Sales Tax in Evergreen
Post Posted: May 19, 2018 7:38 am 
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The DEED group wants more then just roundabouts.. They want sidewalk, curb and gutter on the highway between Bergen Park and Evergreen. The fact is that there is almost no pedestrian traffic there at all. No one would use them.

It would be like putting sidewalk, curb and gutter, and raised medians on 285 between Conifer and Pine Junction. It's just not needed.

What we do need is maintenance of our existing infrastructure. The road hasn't been paved in downtown Evergreen for many years. The sidewalks have never been maintained.

We payed for this maintenance through existing taxes.

Evergreen has more than 200 miles of walking and biking trails for people to use- why would they need a sidewalk on the highway?


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 Post subject: Re: ELID - 22% Higher Sales Tax in Evergreen
Post Posted: May 19, 2018 1:49 pm 
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Roundabouts would kill the Evergreen coffers. If you have to slow down enough to merge into one, the police wont be able to bust you for speeding when they are hiding on the other side of the intersection. The cops haven't doled out a ticket at Marshdale since that roundabout was build. :doh:


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 Post subject: Re: ELID - 22% Higher Sales Tax in Evergreen
Post Posted: May 19, 2018 2:13 pm 
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New Bear wrote:
Roundabouts would kill the Evergreen coffers. If you have to slow down enough to merge into one, the police wont be able to bust you for speeding when they are hiding on the other side of the intersection. The cops haven't doled out a ticket at Marshdale since that roundabout was build. :doh:

The Evergreen coffers are NOT filled by catching speeders as there are no Evergreen Police - just Jeffco. Most of the tickets seem to be given on the stretch from Marshdale to the S curves as well as the Dedisse Park entrance where you have to slow down to 30 going downhill. Neither of those would be affected by roundabouts. I'm so-so about roundabouts in general but fewer tickets would be a GOOD thing in my book.
One place I think roundabouts would be WONDERFUL are the two 3-way intersections near 73 and 285 near the old Safeway center and get rid of both lights!
As for the sales tax increase - not a big fan of that but I don't do much shopping in Evergreen anyway. It is bad enough they keep trying to add on that "voluntary" 1% tax already and you have to ask to remove it!


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 Post subject: Re: ELID - 22% Higher Sales Tax in Evergreen
Post Posted: May 19, 2018 4:34 pm 
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It's a shame that the OP is mis-characterizing this Evergreen Local Improvement District as something that it is not. If you don't wish to support it, that's one thing and certainly your right, but to make outright false claims as to what it is and what they are trying to do in order to drum up outrage and opposition against it is another. I urge everyone to do their homework and get informed on this topic and draw their own conclusions.

No, ELID does NOT create another layer of government and the proposed 1% tax increase is separate from the creation of this district; the tax increase must be placed on the ballot and approved by a majority vote of those within the ELID district boundaries, the creation of the district is fully within control of the Jeffco Board of County Commissioners (BOCC). Forming ELID creates an official entity that other government entities such as CDOT can now formally contract with so that any funds they collect (whether voluntary or an approved tax) they can apply toward the projects that have been chosen by the community as priorities. The ELID will be administered by the current Jeffco Commissioners and staff and overseen by an Advisory Committee appointed by the BOCC and consisting of residential property owners, business property owners, and business owners. That Advisory Committee would have a minimum of one public town hall meeting per year in order to gather community input on project priorities as well as at least 2 meetings per year with the BOCC for updates on progress on projects. All funds collected within the ELID go into a separate account and can ONLY be spent on projects designated by the ELID - it is not money that the county can touch or use for anything else. It stays all within the community.

It is NOT a 22% tax increase. It's a 1% sales tax increase, not property tax increase, that would apply to both residents and tourists alike when shopping within ELIDs boundaries - those who use the roads and sidewalks - and would bring in much-needed revenue in order to do maintenance that the county isn't doing now on crumbling infrastructure in and around Evergreen. It is not permanent as it would sunset in 15 years.

Could it hurt business? Yes, it is possible that some will choose to shop elsewhere to avoid the additional charge; however, even with a 1% increase, Evergreen's sales tax is still one of the lowest in Jefferson County AND based on a survey that the Evergreen Chamber of Commerce sent out, 65% of business owners who responded said they are in favor of the tax increase so they are willing to incur any detriment in order to benefit Evergreen as a whole. Quite likely, they feel that leaving Evergreen to crumble and decay will hurt business more than a 1% tax increase. If a tax were voted on and approved, it would replace the current, voluntarily-collected 1% sales tax by some businesses.

The projects that have been listed are what the ELID group has collated after holding 5 community meetings in various locations in order to solicit feedback on what improvements residents and business owners would like to see happen. They are not exclusively from the small grassroots group that is spearheading this effort. They are not "urban" projects, they are to fix what's in disrepair now, and has been for years, in order to keep Evergreen beautiful, maintained, and safer. If you are wondering what it is that needs to be fixed or is unsafe, watch that YouTube video above, and see the pictures that Linda Kirkpatrick posted in her JustAroundHere article that we have in our ELID topic.

If you have any questions, the folks involved in ELID are more than happy to chat with you. Email info@EvergreenLID.org or fill out the contact form here: http://www.evergreenlid.org/contact/.

If you would like to show your support, please sign the petition here: https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/yes-for-elid

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 Post subject: Re: ELID - 22% Higher Sales Tax in Evergreen
Post Posted: May 19, 2018 5:10 pm 
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Increasing taxes are a good way to keep the riff-raff and those on fixed income out. It's only 1%. If you cannot afford that, then you should not be there to start with. 8)


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