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 Post subject: Re: Wake Up
Post Posted: Jun 29, 2020 9:28 am 
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CoMountainMan97, I will accept with your statements if you add a 5th:

5. Reliance on the health industry to weather the storm between now and the time that the vaccine or herd immunity is achieved is not possible, because that industry is not equipped to handle the sheer volume of cases that will ensue. Doctors, hospitals, and other aid agencies will have to turn away a very high percentage of cases due to overload, and those infected people will have to combat the disease solely with their own resources. Some percentage of deaths due to lack of treatment will have to be accepted by society.

Do you disagree?

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 Post subject: Re: Wake Up
Post Posted: Jun 29, 2020 3:00 pm 
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Hi Keg (and everyone),

I'm not sure what our ultimate capacity really is and so I cannot agree with your assertion that we are or will be limited by this. One data point was that in anticipation of overwhelming the hospital capacity in New York City, a US Navy hospital ship was sent to the Big Apple - with much fanfare - and it returned to Norfolk earlier than planner because the surge capacity was not needed. Why that was the case, I'm not sure; and will the next surge be bigger and in different places, again I'm not sure. So, in light of my ignorance, I can't state unequivocally that our hospital systems will be overwhelmed.

Here in Colorado, we have a long history of respiratory treatments dating back to tuberculosis treatments in the late 19th century and with National Jewish arising out of the Spanish flu in the early 20th... So, Colorado has a good chance of being well-prepared for any surge that may occur.

This uncertainty and diversity across the land speak to local management of the issue, not blanket edicts from governors or federal agents. Even if we are overwhelmed, I still maintain that each individual has the power and responsibility to evaluate the local situation (in both time and space) and protect themselves according to their conscience, risk, and abilities.

There is a broader issue at play beyond COVID19 and that is how to make decisions in uncertain environments. COVID19 is a prime example of not enough or the right kind or quality of data and still having to make decisions. This is where devolving the decision-making authority to the lowest possible levels makes for the best overall outcome, because knowledge and information in these cases is distributed, not consolidated. So, I maintain that empowering individuals to take charge of their lives is the best answer. It also avoids labeling people's careers as "non-essential" which is, to borrow Mike Rowe's phrasing, a "linguistic embarassment" that we as a society will deeply regret.

Thank you for challenging my position and allowing me to clarify. I appreciate it very much!

Cheers,
CoMountainMan97


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 Post subject: Re: Wake Up
Post Posted: Jun 29, 2020 3:56 pm 
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I do not share your (in my opinion) rosy assessment of our nation's ability to handle large numbers of infected, seriously sick people in this day and time. I guess time will tell.

I do believe that the mortality rates and trends you quote are based on factors (ready availability of medical help and drugs) that will be difficult if not impossible to maintain with surging rates of infection. I do not know that for a fact … but the early history of this pandemic leads me to that conclusion.

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 Post subject: Re: Wake Up
Post Posted: Jun 29, 2020 5:47 pm 
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What evidence, if any, would change your mind from the pessimistic view to a more optimistic view? If you were to rate your confidence in our inability to handle a surge of cases, with 1 being low confidence to 10 being completely confident/no doubt, what number would you take?


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 Post subject: Re: Wake Up
Post Posted: Jun 29, 2020 6:43 pm 
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I base my views on my sense of the health industry today, based on reports I get from family members who work in such industry and the many stories in mainstream media that report the same. If the initial surge of this disease caused such a drastic effect, I do not see how an extended, continued surge can hope to be handled.

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 Post subject: Re: Wake Up
Post Posted: Jun 29, 2020 10:19 pm 
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Keg, please name one area that was so overwhelmed by this virus, that the medical facilities couldn't handle it?
I'll admit NYC "looked close" but were quickly given additional facilities that were never used.
Is there any valid info that the medical community can't handle what's coming?
"Everyone knew" the number of cases would climb, after we came out of hiding!
What's the alternative?
We as a society, should waste away at home? cowering from this, while we wait for the same people, who have spent the last 40 years looking for an aids vaccine, to find a cure for it?


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 Post subject: Re: Wake Up
Post Posted: Jun 29, 2020 10:43 pm 
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And back on topic for moment.
I've spent a far amount of time the last couple of days, looking for info about Plandemic and Dr. Judy Milkovich.
I have to admit, there are pages and pages of stories and articles denouncing her claims! It seems, the lady is most likely a nut case.
But, for just a few questions, join me under my foil hat.
Why are so many people trying so hard to discredit her?
Why have we heard nothing from Dr. Fauci, about her claims?
Why, with all the interviews he has done since this story, has no "journalist" asked Dr. Fauci about it?

Please, don't be afraid to show me how inept I am, with links to his replies or questions from journalist that I've missed.


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 Post subject: Re: Wake Up
Post Posted: Jun 30, 2020 6:13 am 
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I never said the industry was "overwhelmed" to date. I did say that, given reports on how the health industry is coping today, I do not believe they could keep up if the infection rate rose several orders of magnitude.

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 Post subject: Re: Wake Up
Post Posted: Jun 30, 2020 7:12 am 
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“Why are so many people trying so hard to discredit her?
Why have we heard nothing from Dr. Fauci, about her claims?
Why, with all the interviews he has done since this story, has no "journalist" asked Dr. Fauci about it?”

:whistle:


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 Post subject: Re: Wake Up
Post Posted: Jun 30, 2020 1:59 pm 
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I drove to Independence Pass this past weekend with my Goldens. As I entered Chafee County, a big sign is posted that face masks should be worn. Yet, as I drove through Buena Vista, I was stopped at a red light where I was next to a coffe shop. I stopped counting those in line at 30. Not one person wore a mask and folks were inches apart, not the required 6 feet. As I watched folks enter nearby shots and those walking across the street, people were not wearing face masks and social distancing was non-existent. I believe I was in a town where no one believes the virus is nothing more than a hoax. So much for the sign display greeting folks entering the county.

When we arrived at Independence Pass, only a hand full of people wore masks (I was one of those few). I never approached the overlooks. People were standing shoulder to shoulder masks or not. With this scenario, it could be a matter of time before Colorado's virus cases begins to spike like what is occuring in Arizona. We have a major high volume traffic/travel weekend, busy outdoor activity holiday approaching. People will congregate in large groups wether they are supposed to or not. Good luck with that.

Though I find it ironic that the age group who were convinced they were impervious to the virus (i.e. young, strong, healthy, very active) is the age group currently most affected by that which they denied existed; thus, they totally believed they were invincible and would never catch it...

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 Post subject: Re: Wake Up
Post Posted: Jun 30, 2020 3:59 pm 
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I am glad that you stayed safe. Even Fauci told the Senate today that we could get to 100,000 new cases a day at the rate we are going. that would equate to 7,000 deaths if we took the low estimate of 7% mortality rate. A DAY

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Last edited by Wily Fox aka Angela on Jun 30, 2020 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Wake Up
Post Posted: Jun 30, 2020 4:41 pm 
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JMiller wrote:
Why have we heard nothing from Dr. Fauci, about her claims?
Why, with all the interviews he has done since this story, has no "journalist" asked Dr. Fauci about it?

Why should a public figure be expected to address unsubstantiated accusations from a possible quack who has posted unverified claims based on unreproduced, possibly contaminated test results?

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